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S2E11 - Modern Day Feminism & Men's Rights

Episode Description:

As a feminist, I think it’s also important to look into and understand the issues that men face. To see the issues that men’s rights activists fight for, check out the links below.

Resources:

https://nationalcenterformen.org/

https://www.reddit.com/r/INTJfemale/comments/mjn39t/what_is_your_opinion_on_the_current_state_of/

https://www.reddit.com/r/feminismformen/comments/fokbpp/seeking_feminist_perspective/

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zCjX9PF8RwboWCCCHq0gLLavS7q8G65Y8r6hSqfeB-U/edit?usp=drivesdk


Disclaimer:

Some parts of the transcript may be edited for better readability, but the content remains the same. Mostly removed duplicate words, vocal filler words, and added/removed some words for clarification.


Transcript:


Hey, everyone! This is Meliza, and I'm the Talkative Introvert.


Remember in season one when I said, I wasn't going to talk about anything controversial? Well, comes to find out those are the best ones to talk about. So in today's episode, I'm going to talk about 'Modern day feminism and men's rights'. What I've learned, especially in this past year is that everyone has been in some way or another, oppressed or have some type of struggle. Everyone in this world has dealt with some type of hardship. Yet people are fighting about who struggles more important? Which one deserves more attention? Which one's better? Which one's worth fighting for? Which one is worth posting unbalanced social media? And which one is most profitable for the news? It's turned into this type of competition on who is more oppressed. When in reality, everyone's struggles are valid and unique to the individual. And each and every single one matters. So why am I talking about men's rights in modern day feminism? This came about from a YouTube video I watched by Aba & Preach, and it made me want to look further into men's rights. So if you haven't watched Aba & Preach, they're pretty hilarious. I really love their channel. They basically say what I'm thinking, and they're pretty funny. They're two comedians, I believe, in Canada or something. But they have a YouTube channel that's called ‘Aba & Preach’. A-B-A, and Preach P-R-E-A-C-H.


1:33

Anyway, so they were reacting to a video where feminists and men's rights activists sat down together to have a conversation. Unfortunately, the video they were reacting to, wasn't a very productive one and ended up making both sides look kind of bad. So it wasn't that great of a conversation. It didn't help also, that the people who created this video, I can't remember who it was. I think it was Jubilee. Or one of those types of YouTube channels if you know what I'm talking about. But they ended up including a self-proclaimed incel on the men's side. And then they also didn't include a feminist who was willing to 1) Listen to the men's activists. 2) Didn't provide a feminist who is knowledgeable in the facts about what the feminism movement is fighting for. So, it wasn't a very fruitful conversation. Anyways one of the guys actually came into this conversation prepared with some of the issues men struggle with. And he was actually very insightful, because I never really thought about the issues that he talked about. And he provided facts along with it. But he was specifically talking about issues in America. Not any other country. I don't know anything about any other countries. So I'm only going to talk about America. But these are issues men are currently facing in America today. And I never really looked into it or never really researched it. I remember the first time I heard about men's rights and men's rights activists. And I honestly thought at the time, that it was a complete joke. I was like this can't be serious. What else could they possibly need or want? And I thought back then, they're just doing this to just get back at the feminists. That they're essentially a bunch of incels who are just mad at females and mad at women, hate women, blah, blah. They're just creating this group to, I don't know, counteract all the work that feminists were doing. As very negative, I didn't think much of it. But I also was really young at the time. And I think I was in high school the first time I've heard about them. And I just didn't take it seriously. And I didn't bother to look it up or look up the researcher, look up what issues they're fighting for. I just dismissed it and thought it was a complete joke.


4:10

But the older I get, the more I learn that the world doesn't revolve around you. That there are other people in this planet that we have to coexist with. That everyone deserves to be heard regardless of ethnicity, religious affiliation, political affiliation, age, orientation, gender. I mean really, the list goes on. And honestly, it's kind of sad it took me this long to really even look into what men's rights are. It took a YouTube video for me to look into it further. And so, that's why I wanted to do this episode. Because even though I don't have a whole lot of listeners, and I'm not super famous or anything like that, you know, at least I can share what I found in my research with the very few who actually listened to this podcast. So, thanks for listening. I hope you listen all the way to the end, because I think these are valid things to learn about when it comes to men's rights and modern-day feminism. First off, I do want you to know that I do consider myself as a feminist. I grew up in a very traditional conservative household. And my dad was super sexist, which makes sense because of his upbringing. My dad came from a very old school generation, he was born in the 1930s. So it makes sense why he is the way he is. And it's just something like sexism or looking down on women or not seeing women as an equal. It's just something that was instilled in him. It's what he knows. It's what he grew up with. So, I understand why he is the way he is. But it did make growing up pretty difficult as his daughter. We used to butt heads all the time and get into arguments. And we've literally yelled at each other before, because I can be a little outspoken, and I'm not really afraid of my dad, I guess. But some people are kind of afraid of him. He's pretty...What's the word? Intimidating. He's pretty intimidating. But I just hated that. I didn't like every time he put down women or said anything bad about women or anything like that. So especially middle school, high school, I always felt like I needed to say something every time he said something. Plus, we didn't have like a great relationship anyway, so I didn't care. I was kind of talking back to him. Anyways, it's a different story. But anyways growing up, we used to butt heads. And I did grow up in, like I said, a traditional conservative household. So my mom, for example, even though she was the breadwinner, she was the main income holder, she still was expected to do the stereotypical female responsibilities like household chores and cooking and cleaning and all that stuff. My dad was on disability. So, my mom had to step up and be the breadwinner of the household. But she still did all the other stuff as well. Not saying that my dad didn't do anything. He did clean, but it's not, I guess, to the same extent to all the things that my mom did. Because she also grew up in that conservative household where the woman does certain things. And along with that, along with my mom fulfilling the stereotypical female role in the household, I used to always get told I can't do certain things, or I can't have certain things because those things are for boys. And I hate that so much. And I hate when people do that. I hate when parents say that to their kids, or to their daughters, or even to their sons. Like, if your son wants to buy something pink, like wants the pink Corvette over the red one or the blue one, just let him have it. Why does it matter? In the long run, it really doesn't truly matter. They're gonna end up being who they end up being in the future. So let them have the pink toy and let them have the blue toy. And then I also grew up with my dad saying things that, like I said, are pretty sexist. Like, he'll say things like, "Well, you know how women are", or "You know, well, she's a woman." Stupid comments like that. And it was really frustrating growing up, because he would literally say that to other men right in front of me. So he didn't care that I heard him say that, which was very frustrating.


8:55

I actually, remember when I was doing research for this and writing out my outline. It reminded me of a time where I was in the car with him and my cousin. So my cousin was driving and my dad was in the passenger seat, and I was in the back. And my dad was talking English. And then he lowered his voice, and said something sexist in Tagalog to my cousin. Because we've passed by a female driver who made some type of mistake. I can't remember what she did. But my dad said that was because she was a woman. That's why she made that mistake. And I just remember vividly at the time, in my head, I was like, are you serious? First of all, I can still hear you. And second, hello. I can understand you. As my father, you should know I understand the very language you literally speak to us at home. And I did call him out on it. But he kind of just laughed it off like he does with everything I say about that subject. I don't want to paint my dad as this terrible, horrible person. I mean, he had his moments, but he had some good things about him. When it comes in the world of like sexism, he definitely was not. Let's just say he didn't get 'Number one Father of the year' mug on Father's Day. So with that said, I know what it's like to be treated unfairly as a female, and to be seen a certain way. So that's why I concern myself as a feminist because I do want to see equality. And I do want to be seen as equal to men and I think all genders should just be seen as equal, because we're all just human. And that's my feminist standpoint is all about fighting for equality, and fighting for everyone being on the same playing field, level field? What is it called? Whatever, you know what I mean. But we're all seen as equal. And that to not be seen as equal would be up to the individual, if that makes sense. I like the phrase 'Innocent until proven guilty'. So like, everyone is innocent, and everyone is equal, until they're proven otherwise. And that's my take on feminism. Because I do have some issues with modern day feminism. And I say modern day because I'm talking about now. Not back in the day when they were fighting for women's rights to own property, or to vote or something like that. I'm talking about now, and specifically now in America. Because I know other countries, like I said, I don't know. I'm not in those other countries, and I'm not knee deep into their social issues. But I do know a little bit about how other countries are when it comes to feminism. And I know that here in America, we're pretty privileged to have gotten as far as we have when it comes to equal rights. I know there's still some sexist laws out there. But I'm saying as compared to some other countries, we're definitely way farther along in this department. And I'm definitely grateful for that. So my main gripe with modern day feminism, is how it's currently being viewed as really no longer fighting for equality, but more about punishing men and putting them down. And the biggest issue being how it's in media, and how feminists are perceived in media as man haters, and how those types of feminists are the ones used for representing this population. And it definitely does more harm than good for this cause, especially in those stupid BuzzFeed and Jubilee type videos. I personally think those videos are pretty toxic, which is ironic. Because I think they're trying to not be toxic. And they're trying to point out toxicity in our society. But I feel like they just do more harm. And most of the time, they don't even speak to what the real issues are, and they kind of just make these stupid videos that doesn't help anybody.


13:25

Because the problem I have with the video I mentioned earlier, and with just various YouTube videos, is that women who are involved in these videos or are recorded or asked to be on these videos, they tend to not want to listen to the men. And sometimes women are even just irritated or angry before the conversation even starts. So, they already made a judgment in their head about how the conversation is gonna go. And they've already created a persona for that individual before they even got to meet them or got to listen to what they have to say. And that kind of behavior really ruins it for women and really ruins it for the real cause and the real feminist activists who are trying to fight for equality. Because it feeds into the stereotype that we're all too emotional and don't have the ability to have a level headed rational conversation. And when that happens, it really diminishes our stance and really makes a joke out of us and makes a joke out of feminist. So that's why I think especially those types of videos are super toxic and super unhelpful. It reminds me of one of these videos. So BuzzFeed specifically created a manspreading video and there's a lot of these kinds of videos where really, it's just women complaining about things men do, and not really focusing on real issues. So, this one video I remember watching like forever ago. And it was all about manspreading. So manspreading is when a guy sits down, he doesn't cross legged or close his legs, and he spreads his legs. Manspreading. And there's a whole video about it. There's a whole video about how men spreading is wrong, how it's just another way for men to exert their power and blah, blah, blah. It was just like this whole video about like, how we need to stop men from sitting like how men do. Like telling them to stop manspreading. And I remember my husband seeing that and saying, why not sit like that to exert power? I do that so I don't pinch my balls when I sit. Which makes sense if you think about it. And we as women, because women were the one that did the video, we don't understand what it's like to have those things dangling in our legs. So why are we doing a video about it? Maybe some men do it to exert power? But I think it's really just as simple as, well they don't want to pinch their balls. From what I've heard and witness, you know when guys get hit in the balls, it hurts really bad. So why would they want to sit uncomfortably? So those videos, they really just... they're stupid, they're unnecessary. They're very just spreading unnecessary hate against men for something as stupid as how they sit down. And these videos just don't really talk about the issues that really matter. You know, they don't talk about bodily autonomy or just the mere issue of not being seen as an equal. They're just talking about what men do that irritate women, which I mean can be a video in itself. But it could be like a good comedic video. You know, there's definitely things that all genders do that are stereotypically funny to talk about. Sure. But to like go to the extent where they want men to stop sitting a certain way? I don't know, it's not a real issue. No one cares. It's not gonna eradicate sexist laws if they man spread. So, it was a stupid video and I just didn't understand. It wasn't comedic. Like if it was comedic, then I would get in it and would think that's funny, but it wasn't. And then another problem I have with modern day feminism is just all the hypocrisy. Women in media talk heinously about men and generalizes them and stereotypes them. And say just completely awful things. When isn't that the very thing we're fighting against as feminists? Aren't we trying to change the minds of people to show them that we are all the same, that we can't be placed in this bubble, that we're all individuals with their own different sets of characteristics? But yet, that's becoming more and more common in media, in movies and TV shows, and YouTube videos and social posts, social media post.


18:22

It doesn't make sense. It feels like some women want to just bring down men and place them beneath us. When the purpose of this movement is to fight for equality, then sometimes there's issues where women only want to be equal when it's convenient to them, as goes with basically all movements. They only want what they want, when it's convenient enough. But an example is this whole debate about how it's unfair. Men are required to register with the Selective Service in the event the government needs more men to be drafted into war. And for me, obviously, I don't want to do it. I don't want to register. I sure as hell don't want to go into war and be forced into it. But at the same time if we want to be equal, we can't be all picky choosy about when it's okay to fight for equality, or not. Either all in or you're not. So as much as I don't want to, I would. Because how's that fair? Why do men have to go but not women? And even though we want to be equal to men, so if you want to be seen as equal, then we should sign up for it to register for it. But not gonna lie, I'm probably not going to register unless I have to. But I'll do it when that time comes. And I do feel like that time will come. But hopefully we'll never have to get drafted. And hopefully, there's enough people who enlist in the military, so we don't have to do that. So thanks to all the guys and to all the women who enlisted in the military so that we don't have to get drafted. Then I also learned about this term called 'Locker talk', where men talk negatively about women. And some feminists think that locker talk is wrong. And that men who identify as allies to women should work to eliminate that kind of talk with their buddies. And when I heard about that, I was thinking, well, wait a second. How's that any different for when women get with their girlfriends and talk shit about men? So, should we not be doing that either? But there isn't a term for when women do that. And I was thinking, can you imagine if men told us that we could do that? We would be outraged. We would say, you can't tell us what we can or can't do or talk about. And it just the hypocrisy of all these so-called feminists is astounding. Because they're not thinking about it if the tables were turned. If their behavior is toxic to men, for some reason that's okay. But that's not. If we want to be equal to men and want to be treated fairly, then we need to also treat men fairly and equally to us. And I feel like some feminists just need a reminder that we're not here to control men. We're not here to take everything away from them. We're here because we need to coexist. And we need to find a way to respect and treat each other fairly and kindly. Because at the end of the day, whether you like it or not, we need each other. So, we need to coexist. And we need to find a way that is healthy for all genders. And that is why I wanted to look into the Men's Right Activist Movement. Because I am a big believer in the golden rule. Treat others, like how you want to be treated. If you want to be heard, and want others to be open minded, and to listen to your struggles and your issues, and to not be ridiculed and for them to take your issues into consideration, you should be able to do the same for others. Because we all struggle. We all have something we're trying to overcome. So I didn't want to dismiss this without first learning about it. And I wish I could tell my high school self that, oh brat, do your research first. So, I will add a link to the National Center for men's website so you can also read it for yourself. Not gonna lie, it's really lengthy and very wordy. The website itself is not very pretty.


22:50

It's mostly words. But it has a lot of information. So if you have the time, if you're bored, if you're curious, go check it out. I also found a very useful Reddit post where someone actually did a paper on it, listing all the current issues men face in America, and the resources to back it up. So if you don't want to go read the National Center for Men's website, this one actually puts it in a very nice, short, straightforward, bulleted list of all the different issues. And they even added the resources to back it up. Which is amazing, because I almost didn't do this episode, because I didn't want to do all that work. So thanks to the username is dnnastyness1992 or however you pronounce your username. But thank you for doing all that work so I didn't have to. And I could still do that but still. So from the Reddit post, cuz I'm going to go through that, it's a little easier, I wanted to share some of the items I thought were pretty interesting. I'm not going to go through all of them, because there's quite an extensive list. So if you want to go check that out, again, I'm gonna put that link in the show notes. So go check it out. It is pretty interesting. And there's a lot of resources linked to it that are good reads if you have the time again. It's a lot.


24:13

So the first one on the list was actually pretty interesting. So it states 'Men charged with a crime were found to be 165% more likely to be convicted than women, and men were found to get 63% longer sentences than women, if convicted of the same crime.' So even though they do the same thing, men are in prison or jail or whatever, longer than women, which I thought was pretty interesting because that's pretty unfair. And then the second one, 'Men are more likely to die from cancer, but between men’s and women’s cancers, much less tax funding is allocated to cancer research investigating treatment for men's cancers, even considering per death from each cancer.' So research romance cancers received less than 34% as much public funding as research for women's cancer by the American Cancer Society in 2018', which I totally can see that because whenever you go to the grocery store, or wherever, you know, even like Petco, like whatever, any store, you know how they ask you do you want to donate $1 to blah, blah, blah, most of the time, it's to like breast cancer research or it's to like, I've, I'm pretty sure, like donate to like ovarian cancer and now they think back on all the times a store ask it is mostly related to women's cancer. And I just never really thought about it at the time. And I didn't know that actually that more men die from cancer. But yet, cancer related to men received less funding and less public funding. So it makes it seem like society just doesn't put value on men's health in general, which I thought was crazy. And then this next one, 'Being a man sharply decreases likelihood of having custody of one’s own child, in the case of a custody dispute.' And that kind of reminded me of a movie, like I can't remember the movie. But the dad lost custody of his kids. And the wife won it, even though she was an awful person. I thought this was interesting, too. Because just because you're your mom doesn't make you worthy of having your children's custody or worthy of being a mother to these children. Women are human. They make mistakes, too. And not everyone should be a mother. And I think when it comes to custody court cases are really should just go to the person who's most fit to be taking care of their children. I don't think it really should depend on gender necessarily. And then another one is that 'Men constitute over 40% of intimate partner violence victims. As of 2017, it is estimated that there are over 2,000 women’s-only shelters, but, to the knowledge of the author, only two men-only shelters.''


27:14

So men don't have the same resources as women when it comes to domestic violence or partner violence, which I think is pretty insane. I believe, though, in Sacramento, even though there are women's shelters, I believe the Tubman house if that's still around, I can't remember, I think they do still allow men to stay there, if they're dealing with domestic abuse. I think it does depend on the agency or the shelters. But I think some, even though they're specifically for women, still walk in men. But again, that doesn't dismiss the fact that there's over 2000 shelters, but only two that the author could find for men. I think that's insane. Because they'll mention later in this paper that men who are considered victims of domestic abuse or rape or whatever, aren't seen as victims. And this paper does speak to that as well that society doesn't really see men as rape victims like in movies and TV shows and whatnot. Men who are raped, it's like they don't consider as rape because it's like, well, you should have liked it because you're a guy. You know, you should be lucky that you had sex with someone bla bla bla. And so, it dismisses men who are victims of domestic violence and of rape. And it reminds me of Terry Crews, for example. During the #metoo movement, he talked about how he was sexually assaulted. But people made fun of him for it. I think it was Wendy Williams or something. And she did get backlash for it, but not really that bad. She's still around. I don't think she got canceled. But she made fun of him. Because, you know, he's this big, tough looking guy. And he's coming out with his truth that he was sexually assaulted. But she thought it was a complete joke. And then she made fun of him for it. And I was like, that's still his body. The other person still requires his consent to touch him. Whether you're female or male, it's your body. It's still your body. And that made me really hate Wendy Williams. I mean, I don't like her anyway. I don't watch her show. But when she said that, I was like, how do you have all these followers? And there's people literally in the crowds laughing. They think it's a joke, too. I'm like are you serious? It's messed up. Cuz I think it happened to Shia Labeouf also. Cuz he was like part of an installment art thing, I can't remember, where he was blindfolded and sitting on a chair and someone groped him. But no one took it seriously. They were just like, whatever. He's a guy. He probably liked it, which is messed up because again, that's his body. They should have asked him if it was okay first. And then this one really got me. I didn't know that this happened. But 'A minor boy rape victim can legally be forced to pay child support to the rapist.' I was like what? This is how incels are created, you know? This is how you make young men hate women. Like the person raped him, but he's paying her child support. Doesn't make any sense. It's... I don't know. That one, really got me. Especially anything that has to do with children get me. Because he was a young man. Or not young man, young individual, a boy. And he was put in to the situation by an adult. And yet he has to pay the consequences, even though it wasn't his fault. And that's gonna really ruin him for life.


31:22

Okay, and then this next one is, 'There are hiring quotas that before the quota is met effectively disqualifies men from a position because of their gender. That's just like outright unfair. I think this came about because I know like as feminists, we want to see more representation of women in the workplace. And we want to see more representation in management and leadership. And that's really great. And I like that we are seeing more women in the workplace take leadership roles. In my department alone, like in my project alone, like my director is female, my assistant director is female. Out of all the managers, only three of them are male, and the rest are female. So I do like seeing that. And some of my favorite managers have been female. And that's great. They definitely deserve the spot that they're in. They're very intelligent women. They're very great managers, too. They make great managers. But my problem with their being a hiring quota is that, how's that fair? Again, as feminists we're fighting for equality. Yet, we are not allowing men the same opportunity as us to get into a certain position. Like if you take Sally and Joe, they grew up in the same neighborhood, went to the same school, went to the same college, had the same degree, did the same types of internships, got the same type of work experience. But say, Joe just did slightly more and had better reviews at his internships and stuff because he just did work better. And he was more analytical and more willing to do extra work. And he was just like a step above Sally. How is it fair that he gets rejected, but she gets the job even though she probably did less than him, didn't quite perform as well as he did? How is it fair that she gets the job but he doesn't? You know what I mean? And the fact that there's a quota goes against the Equal Employment Opportunity Principle that we have here in America. So in America, we have this Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. They are a government group who is responsible for enforcing federal laws that make it illegal to discriminate against a job applicant or an employee, because of the person's race, color, religion, sex, national origin, and age. Oh, and disability.


34:18

So if having a quota and disqualifying a man because of his gender is not only unfair, but goes against that equal employment opportunity. So it doesn't make sense that this exists. And there's some statistics I kind of already knew, but I just never really thought about it, I guess. Which is kind of sad. For example, males commit suicide at over triple the rate of non-males. Over 60% of the homeless are male. Like the homeless population are male. And these are pretty big issues that I feel like aren't really looked into. The statistic is there and it's pretty well known and I've known about it even in high school. But I don't know if anything's really being done about it or people don't care. Because in general men's issues are just not as seen as high of a severity as women's issues, even though literally men are killing themselves more than women are. There's clearly some type of issue there that needs to be researched. And then another one. Men do not have access to hormonal contraceptive. I think this one, both feminists and men's rights activists should join together on that. Because it's completely unfair that women have to subject themselves to hormones to not have children. But it's also unfair to men, that they're only contraceptive are condoms. Because in this list, it also talks about how it's sometimes seen as acceptable for a man to be deceived by his partner ceasing contraception in order to get pregnant. And so if there is a contraception for men, then men can control the option for them. That way they they're not accidentally impregnating someone or being deceived into impregnating someone.


36:28

I think birth control for both men and women are a great idea and a useful tool, especially if you don't want any unplanned pregnancies. So I think that one feminists can agree on that should be something that our society works towards. And the last one, I kind of mentioned already, that men's issues are not seen as similar or of similar importance according to the severity when compared to women's issues. Men and boys are often told they have male privilege, while as deduced by the existence of men's issues, women have a legitimate form of female privilege, which is a taboo phrase. If men find they're experiencing misfortune as a result of their gender, they can be disregarded as privilege, backfiring or part of the patriarchy. And like I mentioned before, everyone struggles. Everyone is oppressed in some way. Everyone has some type of hardship. And they all matter, because we're all human. And this world we live in is imperfect. So we are going to come across issues. And I think it's unfair as women to dismiss men's issues. Because we are fighting for them to recognize ours. So shouldn't we also be able to recognize theirs? Again, back to the golden rule. So, yes. Women historically have had to deal with all kinds of torment. And we still do to an extent, but that doesn't make men's issues any less valid. Like I said, we're all still human and have to get through life and coexist as best we can. There's just so much division in our country, it's so exhausting. People are stuck in their own world. If you're not with them, you're against them. People would rather fight each other than try to understand each other. It's like in TV shows when something dramatic could have been avoided if the two parties just took the time to communicate with each other, and share their side of the story. As a viewer, you're probably thinking to yourself, how easily avoidable that situation would have been. Yet we don't actively practice open communication, especially those of the opposing side. So I think if we all learn to listen to each other, like truly listen and actually absorb the information bring being presented to us, we really could discover how much we actually have in common and how much we can just learn from each other.


39:01

As a feminist, I think it's important to look into these men's rights and understand their movement as well so that we can be better advocates for each other. And so that we can work together for equal rights and for equality. Because right now, not just right now but for a long time, people are always stuck in this us-against-them mentality. When really, we're all just trying to exist together. Alright, well, that's a wrap. If you enjoy what you hear and want to stay up to date on the show, please follow me on Facebook and/on Instagram. You can also check out my website at thetalkativeintrovertpodcast.com. All the information will be on there as well as in the show notes. Please help support the show by sharing it with your friends and family. Thanks so much and I'll talk to you guys in the next episode.

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